Available ISVs?

[Kracken]

I have a hard time trying to reach whoever selling away WG stuff...

My list of active ISV stops at:
- Elwynor (rick's pretty busy, but responds)
- Metro (crosswordz@239$ says it all)
- Arctic (dan really responsive !)

My question: Anyone else still selling/giving stuff ?

- Tried contacting Marc @ dialsoft, no answer.
- tried the author of blood rites ( I see this has been ported WGNT (thekeep.net) but mail gets bounced)
- Of course I'm very interested into Forbidden Lands 2&3 ports, these are gems, but can't find the author.
- Brinker @ ion-interactive is, of course, long gone. (missing alchemy games+sorceror isle, .. oh my these were too good!
- Sylvain @ vircom seems not responsive..

My definition of abandonware is :
Software that the owner no longer sells, supports, well... has just abandoned.
And inherent to abandonware is the right to crack/copy/port/do-whatever-pleases-you with the soft if you can get your hand on it.

Is it bad/unfair to crack a game that you tried hard (and failed) to reach the owner to ask for a price ?

[Toyduck]

I have a hard time trying to reach whoever selling away WG stuff...

My list of active ISV stops at:
- Elwynor (rick's pretty busy, but responds)
- Metro (crosswordz@239$ says it all)
- Arctic (dan really responsive !)

My question: Anyone else still selling/giving stuff ?

- Tried contacting Marc @ dialsoft, no answer.
- tried the author of blood rites ( I see this has been ported WGNT (thekeep.net) but mail gets bounced)
- Of course I'm very interested into Forbidden Lands 2&3 ports, these are gems, but can't find the author.
- Brinker @ ion-interactive is, of course, long gone. (missing alchemy games+sorceror isle, .. oh my these were too good!
- Sylvain @ vircom seems not responsive..

My definition of abandonware is :
Software that the owner no longer sells, supports, well... has just abandoned.
And inherent to abandonware is the right to crack/copy/port/do-whatever-pleases-you with the soft if you can get your hand on it.

Is it bad/unfair to crack a game that you tried hard (and failed) to reach the owner to ask for a price ?

Marc can be found at www.jungle.net, his new website, Dialsoft is now down. I believe he is now using WG5.2, but not really sure.

You actually got a reply from Metro?

[Kracken]

Actually no I haven't even tried contacting Metro....prices way too high, I understand their "strategy", but ...

I know they are active b/c:
- MODULE 9: Prophecy of Plague is 2012
- Majormud is still hugely popular (ODS knows about it

I'm more interested from all the less-known ISVs (if any!)

Thanks for jungle.net, thought it was dialsoft.com (was working few days ago..)

[Toyduck]

Actually no I haven't even tried contacting Metro....prices way too high, I understand their "strategy", but ...

I know they are active b/c:
- MODULE 9: Prophecy of Plague is 2012
- Majormud is still hugely popular (ODS knows about it

I'm more interested from all the less-known ISVs (if any!)

Thanks for jungle.net, thought it was dialsoft.com (was working few days ago..)

Yes, the notice on Jungle.net actually mentions it as being the new 'Dial' site. It's about 1/2 done. He has a library for Dialsoft wg modules just nothing in it yet.

His new email should be marc@jungle.net

I will keep my ears/eyes out - but I haven't tried to contact any other ISV's recently.

[Kracken]

"marc@jungle.net" replied back, but he referred me to nate hammond @ netvillage.com. Maybe a buyout ?

Waiting for a reply from nate.

BTW, if anyone knows how to extract the (encrypted?) PAK file inside dialsoft demos, I just can't even test them, you need an activation code....

[Iceman]

- Metro (crosswordz@239$ says it all)

Don't install crosswordz on a windows version of worldgroup... any user can crash the system using in game commands... it used to be a pretty popular module of mine till I had to pull the plug.

as far as I know the dos version was not victim to this issue though.

Oh the "2012 copyright" on metros pages is just something that appears on lots of their websites automatically... mod9 is so old it went off to college and called saying it can't find a job and is moving back home now to live in the basement.

[Toyduck]

"marc@jungle.net" replied back, but he referred me to nate hammond @ netvillage.com. Maybe a buyout ?

Waiting for a reply from nate.

BTW, if anyone knows how to extract the (encrypted?) PAK file inside dialsoft demos, I just can't even test them, you need an activation code....

Maybe, if you telnet in you will see a lot of Dialsoft modules. However the web interface looks like a heavily modified 5.2.

Perhaps a buyout, perhaps Nate will handle sales/support for a %

[Toyduck]

- Metro (crosswordz@239$ says it all)

Oh the "2012 copyright" on metros pages is just something that appears on lots of their websites automatically... mod9 is so old it went off to college and called saying it can't find a job and is moving back home now to live in the basement.

Agreed. All their mods are expensive and it takes forever to get an answer.

[Kracken]

@iceman:Thanks for crosswordz, good to know!

So that 2012 on Mod9 is pure smoke ! Since mmud is the big thing in the whole bbs scene, it looked reasonable that there would still be a profitable demand on it...

So nobody's updating Majormud content anymore? What happen to addicted players that reach the end, if end there is ? (yes I'm not very familiar w/ majormud but its obvious this game is madly addictive)...

(TA is better in my subjective opinion but well that's another debate!)

@toyduck: Yep, the jungle.net looks like a netvillage, but the terminal version is actually a nice BBS first impression...

[Toyduck]

@toyduck: Yep, the jungle.net looks like a netvillage, but the terminal version is actually a nice BBS first impression...

Actually, both the web and terminal interface's are pretty nice. It's obvious some work has been put into it.

Yea, I would hate to send $$ for MMUD to Metro only to have it disappear down some bottomless drain never to be seen again...

[Iceman]

@iceman:Thanks for crosswordz, good to know!

So that 2012 on Mod9 is pure smoke ! Since mmud is the big thing in the whole bbs scene, it looked reasonable that there would still be a profitable demand on it...

So nobody's updating Majormud content anymore? What happen to addicted players that reach the end, if end there is ? (yes I'm not very familiar w/ majormud but its obvious this game is madly addictive)...

(TA is better in my subjective opinion but well that's another debate!)

@toyduck: Yep, the jungle.net looks like a netvillage, but the terminal version is actually a nice BBS first impression...

Module 9: Prophecy of Plague; Released September 13, 2001

Then about 5 years after that we got version 1.11p which was basically a 5 year gap between anything they ever did really, this was supposed to tbe the mod10 platform... they never finished mod10 or got around to releasing it... so we sit with some things in the database for mod10 but not connected to the game.

WCC when they owned it, released one or two modules a year for several years before selling it off... only to die a horrible death.

You could download an editor and have a go at changing the game yourself, but most edited systems go down from frustration of crashes after they screw it up and can't fix it... I've heard of a few edited systems that had a good run but just got busy with life or got sick of dealing with players and shut down. (edited systems generally bring that crowd thats self-destructive, no offense to any reading this lol)

The end comes in the form of level 75 technically... thats all thats built into the game... you could once again edit and change that but no new content or abilility to use character points even beyond level 60 for most characters really... so its rather repetative at that point just trying to squeeze a little more out of the character for boss runs.

I'm trying not to change the content of the game, so its the old familiar for many who logon and say hey I haven't played in about 10 years... the whole no-pvp keeps those who want chaos and war off the system because thats no fun for them... I'm trying to cater to the crowd who just wants to relive something from the past without it being another life frustration. (farmville for mud?)

I should say Dspain has a good idea for a majormud shop where users can purchase items with system tokens... might be a way for people to setup a shop with some items and sell them off... generate some revenue for those still looking for that... people love instant these days and I can't think of a better way to accomplish it in games than that... instead of a subscription based model where they have to earn things over time, give in to the instant gratification model so many website games use and let them buy it now and use it now and then buy more and use more and OMG OMG OMG I WANT MORE... those with money will spend it now to get something now... the old model of pay now and earn it later doesn't work.

[Kracken]

Thanks for this indepth overview of the mmud situation... very clear !

I'm working in the gaming industry and cloud/mobile generation kids have a very short attention & interest span nowadays. Without instant gratification, they move on, so we have to build "wizard-like" interfaces to take the player's hand all along so that he cannot die and rage-quit the game forever (w/ c64 games, you die midway, too bad for you, start from all over again!)

Players have so much options now that if they are not hooked on first impression, they just move elsewhere.
Back then, we had to love TA+Gamemaster, otherwise, we would stay in the dark like losers and peer pressure would just exacerbate the feeling ! (and isolated area-code 'clouds' which just helped this of course)

About in-game purchase, yep, that's an excellent idea the currency system (token) you mention... that's exactly the new trend in the industry, and that's a way to adapt mmud to it... Now, not only we have to build wizards interfaces, but we need to make it free-to-play and ROI by selling stuff/skills through exchange of real-2-fake currency. Zynga "sort of" started the f2p bubble with farmville at one point their stock skyrocketed, but all other gaming shops copied (we even had our own farmville clone!) and that would just dilute the demand... zynga stock is in trouble now... F2P is a very risky business venture and you have to be innovative, create something new and ROI on it quickly.... before others copy you... well even zynga purportedly copied others with farmville... .it's clear the gaming industry is pretty dirty now but thats the way it is, the open, high-bandwidth, internet way.

AFAIK the majormud boards today are mostly 35+ adults, replaying memories (at least htat's what I see with the FU globals that is installed everywhere I personally believe that it's a niche market that is kind-of protected from the "I want-it-now" volatile generation... About the non-pvp: Losing weeks of playing-time when you're a teenager is no big deal, but this is another story when you have family/job/responsibilities... that position perfectly make sense to me.. And the f2p model apply because players can pay on their own (unlike teens who had to pressurize parents!

Cheers,

[Iceman]

well with 180 online playing majormud right now... you would be amazed at how instant gratification works on the adults as well... especially with players coming from edited boards where they have 2x 4x 10x the exp normally provided... they want to get everything now and rush through the game so they can quickly move onto the ultimate bosses and get the biggest items and have some advantage they feel over another.

on the flip side you do have people willing to spend more time and casually get to it... its a true mix of personalities... I think both would be willing to spend money to purchase items they feel would give them an advantage to their style of play... the key I guess would be designing the specific items that would appeal to each style of play... those who want to conquer today let them spend hundreds and do it, those who want to gradually work along with some help when they feel stuck give them items to get that temporary boost through a task.

sadly majormud isn't a true mud where you can edit everything top to bottom within minutes online and have updates go live... if I wanted to make a change now I'd have to take the BBS down and upset 180 people trying to do things... even if its not important its an interruption to their time which they are not forgiving on lol... not to mention the users are from around the world and span every time zone so there is no good time anymore for me to apply something. (however you could wait to let an update file apply after cleanup but majormud isn't very forgiving if you make a mistake it could means hours of downtime)

I could ramble for hours... for now I eat pizza.

[Kracken]

That's an interesting point of view, of course you are among the few who can have a real glimpse on that particular audience gaming pattern and thinking...

Yep casual versus hardcore gamers are two different brand of businesses... they usually don't mix well, so it's quite interesting that they do in Majormud !
About f2p: One of our game is successful by selling weapons... so a teen get in freely (never alone, peer pressure), but he soon starts to "suck" when his other friend kicks "maj0r asses" with his newly acquired MFG (mega-fucking-gun Of course he didn't found it in the game, the teen coerced his parents to pay... Pressure works on his friends... and so on until next MFG2 cycle.
Morally speaking, this new way of making ROI on teen is questionable.. but thats a new demand, new market that game companies *have to* adapt (not optional), and since gamedev + delivering content freely (no cds, everything is run in distant servers through a browser) all this costs a lot upfront, you need to be creative to make this profitable.
IMHO, BBS back then were not really different... early cloud gaming on low bandwidth....(with a term instead of a browser)

But BBS today is a much different kind of audience : adults that can responsibly decides how to spend their money (afterall it's in the entertainment budget, just like movies), so I see no moral issue there..

Yeah maintenance window is tricky when your game is worldwide, I think Blizzard have planned maintenance on tuesday noon, no matter what they can cut your Starcraft game, they do it no matter the ccu, we also have windows when ccu is lowest (this changes all the time).

Yeah I could rambble for hours as well

To sum it up about ISVs: My perception right now of all this is that trying to be honest and buy WG stuff is just overly tedious and time consuming and lead only to frustration of losing your time.

This module belongs to X who was bought by Y whose mail is hidden at some obscure place... when you manage to find it, it might bounce but most likely, you'll find deaf ears. Most games looks like abandonned to me.. unresponsiveness of metro to a willing-to-pay-700+$ customer is indicative of a dead-market imho.. My perception of an active market from reading heated debates on "who owns what" was probably wrong.

My list of active ISV is now down to Arctic and Elwynor.

anyway, cheers !

[SouthernCross]

This is in response to edited boards and current version.

There are a few edited boards that have done it right and been around for over 10 years. Hated Reality is one of them. The current version of Majormud and mostly ran on edited boards is version 1.00x, 1.01x and 1.05x, which is dependent on the size and customization of the board you want. !.05x is proprietary, but other two versions are available.

I can only speak for HR, we managed to get rid of all the old and ugly HTML and rebuilt it using Pervaise as the Database and using PHP. It also includes a Radio Station. The database was given a complete overhaul and we just reset on 12/1/12 and reconnected to Worldlink. The reset every 9 month, which is how long it takes people to max out at lvl 750. Even at level 750 there are bosses and areas that can take you.

Our user base has been the same since we started ten years ago with the same players.



There are other boards that have been in there awhile also. However, there are other boards that do get into it, but vanish quickly when they find out how hard it is to run a board, let alone an edited board.

The web Addy is http://hatedreality.homeunix.net

[dspain]

That's an interesting point of view, of course you are among the few who can have a real glimpse on that particular audience gaming pattern and thinking...

Yep casual versus hardcore gamers are two different brand of businesses... they usually don't mix well, so it's quite interesting that they do in Majormud !
About f2p: One of our game is successful by selling weapons... so a teen get in freely (never alone, peer pressure), but he soon starts to "suck" when his other friend kicks "maj0r asses" with his newly acquired MFG (mega-fucking-gun Of course he didn't found it in the game, the teen coerced his parents to pay... Pressure works on his friends... and so on until next MFG2 cycle.
Morally speaking, this new way of making ROI on teen is questionable.. but thats a new demand, new market that game companies *have to* adapt (not optional), and since gamedev + delivering content freely (no cds, everything is run in distant servers through a browser) all this costs a lot upfront, you need to be creative to make this profitable.
IMHO, BBS back then were not really different... early cloud gaming on low bandwidth....(with a term instead of a browser)

But BBS today is a much different kind of audience : adults that can responsibly decides how to spend their money (afterall it's in the entertainment budget, just like movies), so I see no moral issue there..

Yeah maintenance window is tricky when your game is worldwide, I think Blizzard have planned maintenance on tuesday noon, no matter what they can cut your Starcraft game, they do it no matter the ccu, we also have windows when ccu is lowest (this changes all the time).

Yeah I could rambble for hours as well

To sum it up about ISVs: My perception right now of all this is that trying to be honest and buy WG stuff is just overly tedious and time consuming and lead only to frustration of losing your time.

This module belongs to X who was bought by Y whose mail is hidden at some obscure place... when you manage to find it, it might bounce but most likely, you'll find deaf ears. Most games looks like abandonned to me.. unresponsiveness of metro to a willing-to-pay-700+$ customer is indicative of a dead-market imho.. My perception of an active market from reading heated debates on "who owns what" was probably wrong.

My list of active ISV is now down to Arctic and Elwynor.

anyway, cheers !

you interested in something new or something ported?

[Kracken]

Was looking for whatever is available for WG NT, a broad question, nothing specific.

Ideally, lists with:
product, price, demo?, stable?, owner, owner_alive?

My experience is that a customer needs to dig these by his own.. Understandable, this is not a new stuff.

Aside from Elwynor, I see no such catalog of products->price. (also saw several posts where you advertise your stuff)

Sure, Metropolis have their own catalog, my experience is that they do not reply back so I can't purchase.
No reply by Netvillage as well. I see no catalog of bbs stuff over their site, but AFAIK they own Dialsoft+InfinitNetwork stuff and probably more..

Oh just received a ping from an ISV, but all his products/keygens are on cds in his house, and he needs to rebuild his dev machine, obviously he has not sold modules lately

I have a better idea of active ISVs now..

Cheers,

[frcorey]

Was looking for whatever is available for WG NT, a broad question, nothing specific.

Ideally, lists with:
product, price, demo?, stable?, owner, owner_alive?

My experience is that a customer needs to dig these by his own.. Understandable, this is not a new stuff.

Aside from Elwynor, I see no such catalog of products->price. (also saw several posts where you advertise your stuff)

Sure, Metropolis have their own catalog, my experience is that they do not reply back so I can't purchase.
No reply by Netvillage as well. I see no catalog of bbs stuff over their site, but AFAIK they own Dialsoft+InfinitNetwork stuff and probably more..

Oh just received a ping from an ISV, but all his products/keygens are on cds in his house, and he needs to rebuild his dev machine, obviously he has not sold modules lately

I have a better idea of active ISVs now..

Cheers,

tell questman who it is.
he was buying up all the wg stuff he could find.

[dspain]

Was looking for whatever is available for WG NT, a broad question, nothing specific.

Ideally, lists with:
product, price, demo?, stable?, owner, owner_alive?

My experience is that a customer needs to dig these by his own.. Understandable, this is not a new stuff.

Aside from Elwynor, I see no such catalog of products->price. (also saw several posts where you advertise your stuff)

Sure, Metropolis have their own catalog, my experience is that they do not reply back so I can't purchase.
No reply by Netvillage as well. I see no catalog of bbs stuff over their site, but AFAIK they own Dialsoft+InfinitNetwork stuff and probably more..

Oh just received a ping from an ISV, but all his products/keygens are on cds in his house, and he needs to rebuild his dev machine, obviously he has not sold modules lately

I have a better idea of active ISVs now..

Cheers,

i dont do an official catalog i do a module as a sysop requests it, got 3 custom projects going on right now and got some smaller stuff i will be releasing this month.

[Kracken]

Hi fcorey,

yep, but from other posts, both already talked together so I'll let this as-is

[Boogooyagga]

I have a hard time trying to reach whoever selling away WG stuff...

My list of active ISV stops at:
- Elwynor (rick's pretty busy, but responds)
- Metro (crosswordz@239$ says it all)
- Arctic (dan really responsive !)

My question: Anyone else still selling/giving stuff ?

- Tried contacting Marc @ dialsoft, no answer.
- tried the author of blood rites ( I see this has been ported WGNT (thekeep.net) but mail gets bounced)
- Of course I'm very interested into Forbidden Lands 2&3 ports, these are gems, but can't find the author.
- Brinker @ ion-interactive is, of course, long gone. (missing alchemy games+sorceror isle, .. oh my these were too good!
- Sylvain @ vircom seems not responsive..

My definition of abandonware is :
Software that the owner no longer sells, supports, well... has just abandoned.
And inherent to abandonware is the right to crack/copy/port/do-whatever-pleases-you with the soft if you can get your hand on it.

Is it bad/unfair to crack a game that you tried hard (and failed) to reach the owner to ask for a price ?

Well hello there all.

I reliaze that this thread has later posts but I thought it would be more useful to quote from this one.

I am one of those ISVs from the past that cause a lot of lot of bandwidth to be consumed as folk discuss their problems with WG modules, their need for activation codes, support, etc. I recently discovered this site by accident and though I would take a peek to see what goes on in here.

This is such an interesting concept, that is your postulate of the existence of a right to crack a game (I am reasonably sure that you are really not limiting this view to games only) that you may have tried hard (and failed) to reach the owner to ask for a price/quote. Well here are a couple thoughts on the point:

1. There is no legal term known as "abandonware"
2. The other term used for cracking software is "stealing".
3. If the owner of software decides to stop marketing, selling, developing, supporting software which has been produced by them, no one will ever acquire the right to crack that software. It is simply illegal, a federal offence in the USA, and a criminal offence in most states and other countries including the one I live in.
4. Software sales and support decisions are business decisions. Have a look at how Microsoft and others handle the issue. When software no longer has a market, it is unlikely that a vendor will continue marketing that software. After all, we are in business to make a profit.
5. The source code for software usually consists of several "engines" which are proprietary and used throughout the vendor's entire range of products. In Soft Arts' case for instance, the most valuable asset in the WG portfolio was/stil is a library of C routines which was purchased at the time several modules were acquired. Providing the source code for any module will often require providing at least a part of the source code for the libraries. Not everything of course because of DLLs and the like, but even the provision of compiled binaries requires the disclosure of an API which is valuable to the vendor. In our case, that library became the foundation for other products which are still being sold and supported. It should not be too difficult to understand then why vendors may not wish to provide the source code for programs/modules which are no longer sold.
6. The simple fact is also that a vendor who stops selling software is under no obligation to provide the software to the world at large as a sort of consolation. The production or acquisition of software rights is an expensive proposition. Even where a loss is made on a product, companies and businesses may wish to retain the rights to the product because it can be of value as a notional asset in the compilation of a balance sheet, which may have implications for the business' ability to source financing, etc.

Simply put, your definition of abandonware is legally incorrect, and is also a precariously dishonest proposition. If you were correct, there would be nothing to legally stop anyone from walking into an abandoned government building and ripping off the fixtures. Yes, people do it, but sometimes they are arrested and prosecuted. There is no right nor will there ever be a right to crack/copy/port/do-whatever-pleases-you with software which is legally the subject of trade secret and which is not being sold or supported by the owner. This last point btw, is significant. Most software is subject to both copyright and trade secret protection. The first may expire, the second never does as long as the owner chooses. Even where the copyright expires, all this does is grant others the right to make a competing exact copy of the work. It does not grant you the right to someone's source code or the right to steal their products protected by trade secret.

There are other points which can be made as well. Complaining about a vendor's unwillingness to continue to sell/support a WG module is like demanding that a McDonalds's in Israel sell pork sausage hamburgers. There is simply no market for it. WG as a platform died, not because of the dozens of ISVs like Soft Arts who staked a lot of money, resources and time on the platform, but because Galacticomm's management became greedy, unresponsive and generally failed to recognize what the market needed to have the product survive. In the case of the modules we sold, we believe that we provided good value to our customers at the time and left them with products which will still continue operating without problems to this day. I do not believe there is a single Soft Arts module for WG which any user can say does not work, or does not deliver the promised functionality at the time. There cannot be anything else reasonably demanded of us or any vendor for that matter and anyone who suggests otherwise is simply howling at the moon like a prairie dog trying to find his pack. Descriptions of our company such as "the black hole" (from another thread), etc. are simply not just wrong, but outrightly stupid.

I had intended to remain on this system to relive some old memories and perhaps provide some assistance to current developers based on the experience I accumulated during the WG devlopment era. Frankly, however, seeing the sort of bile and venom directed at most ISVs who for a simple business reason chose to stop selling addons for an outdated product, leads me to question whether I would be welcome here. Perhaps those like yourself who continue to spew this invective might wish to think carefully whether it is productive. I am actually in discussion with a member of this system who requested information on purchasing modules. I advised him that all of our modules and the entire development production system was safely archived on CDs in two locations and that it would require some effort to restore it before we could generate even one binary. Instead of cursing me off he offered productive advice on restoring and continuing the development environment. I am not sure however that given many of the responses I see on this system, that would be a worthwhile effort.

[SouthernCross]

Boogo, I think you have completely misread the topic. Here are some questions people are seeking.

1) I like this product and wish to contact the owner of it, where can I purchase it and get the activation code.

People have tried for over a decade to get any feedback of where to get this information, all of a sudden you show up complaining after ten years? At what point should a person not get upset about lack of any support?

You simply cannot come on, accuse everyone who was trying to contact ISV support, just to have their face forced into the ground and dead ends and accuse them of being in the wrong. Those who have sought support and to purchase this software have every right to be upset towards those who ignored them.

Abandonware is a product for which no product support is available and the manufacturer is ignoring the product. It is differentiated from a discontinued product because the manufacturer has not issued an official notice of discontinuance, instead, the manufacturer is simply ignoring the product. Copyright ownership may be unclear because while the manufacturer is ignoring the product it may not be tracking or enforcing copyright violations.

That in itself fits the above topic. You cannot ignore people for so long, end support, give up and pop up out of the blue and complain about people being upset. That is absurd.

Let me ask you this question. What are you doing to support your products and offer them to the public? What products do you still own? Are you willing to support and sell the product?

And last question, where have you been the last 10+ years, what products are you currently working on for Worldgroup and does it use the same engine?

Do not complain about people being upset for being abandoned by the ISV's. At this point, anyone still in this hobby has every right to be upset and than more.

What killed this hobby is the lack fo support from ISV's. There are so many boards that have called it quits because of them than any other reason. This hobby is still real popular. However, the ISV's can be blamed directly for its decline; as well as Graphic games. A great deal of people into those games also still play Majormud and other games on BBS systems. Users are not the main hobbyist, the owners of systems are. We had to make our own support and figure out things on our own to stay in this hobby because of the lack of support. Do not blame us, for enjoying this hobby. You guys are the ones who abandoned us, we did not abandon you. To make an assertion that is close to saying "find a new hobby or be sued, oh and BTW, I will not offer any type of support for you" is absolutely ridiculous.

[Kracken]

Hi Boogooyagga,

Not intended at all to spark such a discussion

- Was looking for who has what to offer, had a very hard time trying to do so.
- I bought everything I could bought, really (I'm not making it)
- I'm all for respecting copyrights and encouraging dev time & efforts, really.

- I understand/respect your point of view on keygen legality despite the fact that it's impossible to buy & run an old soft.
100% agree on legality. Was more questioning the moral side of it, but come to think of it, should never brought it up in the first place (too gray area), this I am sorry.

- I now have a good picture of this market, perfectly understandable that today most ISVs are unresponsive.

- So you were an ISV... Welcome back ! As hobbyists, I'm sure many here are looking for you as well...
There is specific forums sections for alive ISVs here (Elwynor, Arctic), I'm sure there is a place for you so you can advertise stuff, should you ever want to put it back.

Cheers, have a good day,

[Iceman]

Well I wouldn't go so far as to say the ISV is what killed things... when it comes down to it, its the core system not having the features its competition did back in the transition from BBS to ISP days... so the business can expand and grow to meet new demands...

in 25 years, ODS BBS went from being an entertainment BBS as the primary draw and source of income... to an ISP as the main draw and source of income... in that transition originally worldgroup was the platform used, but as the business grew, worldgroup could not do what was needed to the scale that was needed in the time frame it needed to be done to keep up with competition and growth...

the lack of a core continually updated and enhanced to meet future needs is what killed people from using it and slowly transitioning to other patches of software around worldgroup to try and keep the BBS yet be a business behind the scenes using other software to get it done...

Currently I am going to struggle with a new problem, thats the same old problem... I'm over 220 users online today playing games... however there is a very real 256 user limit coming my way VERY quick... once again I won't be able to grow the core and keep up with "business" because the abilities of the software simply aren't designed for this limit to be exceeded... so what does my "business" do now... stop accepting "customers" or reduce services to keep up with demand and inability to grow... or switch platforms and adapt. (although my whole system now revolves around being a classic majormud BBS so just kinda stuck)

Thats why people got away from worldgroup... the modules from ISV's tried their best to fill as many demands as customers had and they did a good job... but like the customers, the ISV's faced tons of grief and stress trying to keep up with what 10 different versions they had to compile modules for at one time? Thats INSANE! If the core product doesn't support the business needs, it doesn't matter how many bells and whistles you add in to extend services. (sure today they would have to re-invent modules to be competitive web based applications but we never got that chance to get there)

Side note... I have dozens of people coming back to the game every month, except now the kids are grown up and have money... they are trying to register MegaMUD and pay for it to keep using it... however any attempts they make to register it are met with no response or rejected emails... I can't only imagine how much this majormud revival would generate in income from MegaMUD if they were able to have a one click website application to register it on and keep playing... everyone thinks they use cracks, sure 3/4 will most likely irregardless, but I've got many who constantly email me asking how to pay and register it and I've got no answers to give them since I won't tell them to go find/use cracks, they eventually get told by others its the only way however.

So a couple examples there showing how even "outdated" software still has a demand, just no easy source for purchasing... and how it still has problems in the future that can't be overcome and will limit itself once again like before...

It's weird see'ing adults teach their children learning how to play a text game... but they are... some new find it on their own.

End of the day... I'm still going to try and grow and expand and adapt as best I can... either you love it or hate it... I may hate that I love it but I do.

P.S. I would like to add I was able to legally purchase a license upgrade and module from Rick... the pickins might be slim but if I was a programmer I could make my own modules instead of hoping someone else did I guess? So I'll always be at the mercy of others from my lack of skill and their unique ability set.

[Boogooyagga]

Boogo, I think you have completely misread the topic. Here are some questions people are seeking.

1) I like this product and wish to contact the owner of it, where can I purchase it and get the activation code.

People have tried for over a decade to get any feedback of where to get this information, all of a sudden you show up complaining after ten years? At what point should a person not get upset about lack of any support?

You simply cannot come on, accuse everyone who was trying to contact ISV support, just to have their face forced into the ground and dead ends and accuse them of being in the wrong. Those who have sought support and to purchase this software have every right to be upset towards those who ignored them.

Abandonware is a product for which no product support is available and the manufacturer is ignoring the product. It is differentiated from a discontinued product because the manufacturer has not issued an official notice of discontinuance, instead, the manufacturer is simply ignoring the product. Copyright ownership may be unclear because while the manufacturer is ignoring the product it may not be tracking or enforcing copyright violations.

That in itself fits the above topic. You cannot ignore people for so long, end support, give up and pop up out of the blue and complain about people being upset. That is absurd.

Let me ask you this question. What are you doing to support your products and offer them to the public? What products do you still own? Are you willing to support and sell the product?

And last question, where have you been the last 10+ years, what products are you currently working on for Worldgroup and does it use the same engine?

Do not complain about people being upset for being abandoned by the ISV's. At this point, anyone still in this hobby has every right to be upset and than more.

What killed this hobby is the lack fo support from ISV's. There are so many boards that have called it quits because of them than any other reason. This hobby is still real popular. However, the ISV's can be blamed directly for its decline; as well as Graphic games. A great deal of people into those games also still play Majormud and other games on BBS systems. Users are not the main hobbyist, the owners of systems are. We had to make our own support and figure out things on our own to stay in this hobby because of the lack of support. Do not blame us, for enjoying this hobby. You guys are the ones who abandoned us, we did not abandon you. To make an assertion that is close to saying "find a new hobby or be sued, oh and BTW, I will not offer any type of support for you" is absolutely ridiculous.

This is exactly the kind of reaction that I am talking about. Your arrogance is astounding. You believe you have the right to dictate to me what I should sell and support and whether I should continue marketing software for a dead platform. And you are rude enough to challenge my appearance after 10 years as if I have committed some sort of offence by failing to supply yourself and the 20 other people running Worldgroup systems with $500.00 worth of modules in this period. And all of this because you say people have the "right" to be upset towards those who ignored them which I presume includes me?

How about this? Let me send you an audited account of the investment I made in Worldgroup, including not only the purchase of source code and software and hardware for the development environment, but also the hundreds of hours of programming time for maintenance, porting and upgrades. When you get that indication, send me your cheque for 1% of the total (which is a figure with 3 zeros at the end), at which point you will have acquired the "right" to sound off about my company's policies. Until then, kindly shut up about the decisions made by ISVs and my company in particular to cease selling or supporting WG modules.

As to my popping up out of the blue, perhaps you are right. It is clear I am not welcome here. After this post I will leave so that you can continue to vent your arrogance and ignorance without any restraint. Lot of good it will do you.

Whatever constitutes "abandonware", it does not give you the right to steal the software. Try it with some old Microsoft products and then write them and tell them you have cracked their products and are using them freely because the products are abandonware. I guarantee you that you will thereafter be too busy to post in this forum because you will spend all you time with your lawyers. I also guarantee you'll go broke paying your lawyers (Wonder how I know? Read on).

You want to know what we are doing to support our products and offer them to the public? If you mean our WG products, the answer is nothing. What products do we still own? This system has a quite comprehensive list under the ISV list of products, although from memory it is missing a couple others that we own. Are we willing to sell and support the products? Frankly I have no idea at this time, but one thing is for sure, you are not the party we have to answer to in this regard. If a decision were made to sell and support our products, it would be a business decision and not a reaction to the kind of ignorant rant and whine in your post. Kracken, despite the contents of his previous post, at least recognizes and agrees with the legal issue involved. You however want to maintain the right to dictate to an ISV and possibly demand that their products be made available to you.

Where have I been during the last 10+ years? Practicing law, I am a civil litigation trial lawyer and have been doing it for 33 years. That is why I know a little bit about copyright law and trade secret protection. My company also still provides specialized accounting software to large corporations. I suppose you would like our highly paid software engineers to stop focusing on the products which provide us with monthly 6 figure revenues and instead sell WG modules at $100 a pop. Not realistic. If you want WG modules that badly, and you cannot find anyone to sell them to you, here's a realistic suggestion. Beg, buy, borrow (I'm not going to advise steal) a WG development kit, source also the compilers and tools used for WG development (e.g. Borland, Phar Lap, Visual Basic 3.0), take a crash course in C/C++ programming, and then write any module you want. The ISVs did it, so can you.

As to your complaint about actual lack of support, what the dickens are you talking about? What WG addon modules require "support"? How many modules out there, Soft Arts or otherwise are in need of maintenance because they do not actually deliver the functionality which was expected at the time of purchase. Is your definition of "support" that the vendor must remain alive to hold your hand and respond to emails? Or that new features must be added to dead software? I am still using software purchased in the era of DOS 3.3. The vendors/programmers are long since retired or dead. The software continues to work fine on its intended platform. Can I get an upgrade to Windows XP? Nope, but no vendor usually guarantees that. Can you get parts for cars over 15 years old? No as well. What kind of support did ISVs fail to offer? They didn't continue upgrading and adding features to modules for a dead platform? In reality many if not most modules had been ported at least to WG3-DOS before the platform died. In our case, every single module was upgraded all the way to WG3-NT. We even continued to offer separate compilations all the way back to the MBBS ver. 6 platform, and it was a considerable amount of work to continue to support the differing code bases all the way back to this platform. Eventually, very late in the day we announced that we would no longer upgrade the MBBS modules with new features but we still continued to supply these modules for the 3 people per year who purchased them.

And btw, I have no complaint about people being upset because they feel abandoned by ISVs. That is their right. But I certainly will respond to stupid assertions that ISVs are somehow beholden to users to continue making losses on their investment and are obligated to continue to provide users with the products they want. Last I checked, the capitalist free market system was alive and well in both the USA and my own country. That means, the market decides what goods and services are provided. If ISVs have enough of an economic incentive, they will flock to WG in droves. If you cannot understand that, continue to whine and see if that gets you any further.

[SouthernCross]

Rant and Arrogance?

I called you out on why the community had to take matters into their own hands.

I teach Sociology and Behavioral Psychology with a dual Masters in the area and am in the Doctorate Program. I am not a programmer or editor. This has been my hobby for well over 15 years now. I sat and watched the community die a slow death. It is mostly related to Majormud that killed it.

I do believe that Worldgroup was placed in the gutter and abandoned as well until Questman and others start of working with it in hopes to give it some revival.

You are the one being Arrogant Boogoo, trust me. I simply asked what support are you willing to offer and how to help the community and you replied nothing. How is that me being arrogant? Trust me I have done extremely a lot for this community esp. in the area of Majormud, as well as built modules of my own.

I also do a heavy amount of work with PHP, Pervaise, C, C++, C#, Delphi, and Pascal. I am self taught in all of those as a result of the enjoyment of this hobby and having to provide my own support, because of lack of it from anywhere else.

I do not care about any copyrights and freely share anything and everything I do. As a person who does this as a hobby, the greatest reward is watching people enjoy your work. There is no money left in this hobby as more and more people begin to leave it. I was even going to purchase Majormud twice and was in the final deal the second time, until another group intervened and slandered me. My intention was to give away that source code for free. I also pay hefty royalties to a radio station I own and operate and offer everything for free.

I simply asked you logical question, what do you support, are you willing to sell any of it or offer support for it? Can you list the software you own so we can see it? Your response was no, I will not; than you call me arrogant?

What bothered me about your post is that you got egotistical when a simple thread was started about keygen legality. If there are still people who hold copyrights etc and others wish to purchase or get a hold of the software, they should be able to have some form of contact to do so. You popped in spouting about copyrights etc. Than in your last thread you basically told everyone there will be no support or any of the above. That shows your intentions and is the type of behavior that helped kill the hobby. That is the same response we got from Multi-Serv/Metro BBS or what is left of it.

Anyone can crack anything WG using various debug, hex editing or other programs. The people do not want to do that and simply looking for owners who are willing to sell and or offer support for it. That is the topic of this thread. If you want to call someone arrogant, get a mirror.

It only takes less than an hour to put up a website to offer your software for sale. If you do own it, and wish to offer it for sake; it will be easy to set something up and offer it for sale again. I think that is what people are seeking. There may not be a high demand for it, but the fact that people are seeking to enjoy it and wanting to purchase it speaks for itself and worth setting it up.

[Toyduck]

I am one of those ISVs from the past that cause a lot of lot of bandwidth to be consumed as folk discuss their problems with WG modules, their need for activation codes, support, etc. I recently discovered this site by accident and though I would take a peek to see what goes on in here.

Hi and Welcome! Everyone is welcome here and I hope you do reconsider and stick around. Your knowledge would indeed be welcome and helpful to many of us. I have had a system up since version 5 of MBBS. It has always been a hobby and interest for me. While others spent their $$ on hot cars, (hot babes ), movies, travel, and all those other enjoyable hobbies, I spent on my computers and BBS(s). To exchange information and learn something would be great.

6. The simple fact is also that a vendor who stops selling software is under no obligation to provide the software to the world at large as a sort of consolation. The production or acquisition of software rights is an expensive proposition. Even where a loss is made on a product, companies and businesses may wish to retain the rights to the product because it can be of value as a notional asset in the compilation of a balance sheet, which may have implications for the business' ability to source financing, etc.

Totally agree; a business has to evolve and change, or it dies. My wife is a chef and constantly changes her menu offerings; yes some regular customers are upset that their favorite meal my be gone; but if it doesn't sell, you can't afford to keep at it.

I had intended to remain on this system to relive some old memories and perhaps provide some assistance to current developers based on the experience I accumulated during the WG devlopment era. Frankly, however, seeing the sort of bile and venom directed at most ISVs who for a simple business reason chose to stop selling addons for an outdated product, leads me to question whether I would be welcome here. Perhaps those like yourself who continue to spew this invective might wish to think carefully whether it is productive. I am actually in discussion with a member of this system who requested information on purchasing modules. I advised him that all of our modules and the entire development production system was safely archived on CDs in two locations and that it would require some effort to restore it before we could generate even one binary. Instead of cursing me off he offered productive advice on restoring and continuing the development environment. I am not sure however that given many of the responses I see on this system, that would be a worthwhile effort.

You would be welcome. I do not doubt that one bit. What you decide to do with your software is your's to decide. And you are right, much of the old WG software does run fine. I have purchased 4 systems from Sysops who no longer wish to run a system, obtaining much wanted modules and keys, as well as purchases from Elwynor and Artic.

There are 44 active WG systems on line that I am aware of; perhaps even more. Not many; but each is different. This forum just attempts to bring us all together with our differing opinions and thoughts.

One final thought: WG does need to evolve; perhaps as a group we can do that. Perhaps not. But it's worth trying.

OK, I'm done...

[Toyduck]

You are the one being Arrogant Boogoo, trust me. I simply asked what support are you willing to offer and how to help the community and you replied nothing. How is that me being arrogant? Trust me I have done extremely a lot for this community esp. in the area of Majormud, as well as built modules of my own.

Yes you have. Let's not confuse matters and vent any frustration possibly earned by the MajorMUD folks against others. I have some of the old Soft Arts catalogs; and was quite surprised when he showed up here. I can also see why he did what he did; I couldn't imagine trying to keep up with several flavors of modules for several versions of WG; and having to earn a living.

It only takes less than an hour to put up a website to offer your software for sale.

True

If you do own it, and wish to offer it for sake; it will be easy to set something up and offer it for sale again.

Not so true. What about business licensing, business taxes, employee salaries, sales tax's, operating expenses, federal tax returns on income earned, city tax, county tax, .. the list goes on and may vary depending on your location, but there is are expenses associated. And giving anything away for free is not necessarily the answer, since there will still be requests for assistance and changes, bug reports, etc. And all this done for system that still requires outdated compilers and uses the 8.3 filenaming system.

Don't get me wrong, I love this hobby, but I can understand some of the difficulty involved and why others may not love it.

I think that is what people are seeking. There may not be a high demand for it, but the fact that people are seeking to enjoy it and wanting to purchase it speaks for itself and worth setting it up.

That's true, but a positive effort beats a negative effort any day. I wish MajorMUD had been sold to someone else. It didn't happen. I inquired about purchasing it, like you never got an answer. However, I did contact several ISV's who had closed shop, and did get activation keys for some of the modules I had, even though they weren't actively supporting the product. And there were a few who simply weren't interested.

That's life. Let's make the best of if and see if together we can make something that's even better.

[SouthernCross]

I agree for this hobby to move forward it needs to evolve. A few of us started doing things on our own since the ISV's vanished, but it will be amazing to get some more of the people that develop and know the software to help push things forward.

WG is no longer a money making thing, but so many of us still enjoy it as a hobby. That is why no 2 boards are alike/ We all have our own personalities and look as well as community. I have families etc that play on HR now including younger people.

Now that it is in hobby phase, things are looking better and picking up. If we can get some of the old developers back it will get even more interesting.

I been doing this for over ten years now and thought about walking away several times. That is into we started getting a solid following in other countries as well as the US. We now run the radio station and are on the 5th run of our T-Shirts.

Once you get past the money making phase that so many hope for and want. The possibilities become endless and it becomes a hobby worth having.

[Iceman]

I would like to see everyone work with Questman, to create a new version with everything under one roof and working together on a single platform going forward for all those who want to revive the local bbs with a little international reach... that seems to be what I've done... same local friendly group feel, just from 12 different time zones currently heh.

I think a lot of people underestimated how the ISV's got dumped on with many versions to support and upkeep and troubleshoot and fix immediately for the system crashing... instead of what most do today, one platform going forward, when a date comes, you're expected to have upgraded or you're on your own... you just can't keep maintaining a dozen versions with no new profits... it was all domino's after the core failed to generate new customers.

Look at the challenges ahead already... ip6 compatibility by your ISP or you just might not get callers, requirement to be 32bit today (so the 16bit client, and many 16bit installers don't work now) soon it will have to be 64bit to work under windows in the very near future.

My single dialup modem left still works perfect though! good ole USRobotics courier external box of love! 20 years its the only thing that hasn't failed me... 9600 baud if you must know.

[dspain]

I would like to see everyone work with Questman, to create a new version with everything under one roof and working together on a single platform going forward for all those who want to revive the local bbs with a little international reach... that seems to be what I've done... same local friendly group feel, just from 12 different time zones currently heh.

I think a lot of people underestimated how the ISV's got dumped on with many versions to support and upkeep and troubleshoot and fix immediately for the system crashing... instead of what most do today, one platform going forward, when a date comes, you're expected to have upgraded or you're on your own... you just can't keep maintaining a dozen versions with no new profits... it was all domino's after the core failed to generate new customers.

Look at the challenges ahead already... ip6 compatibility by your ISP or you just might not get callers, requirement to be 32bit today (so the 16bit client, and many 16bit installers don't work now) soon it will have to be 64bit to work under windows in the very near future.

My single dialup modem left still works perfect though! good ole USRobotics courier external box of love! 20 years its the only thing that hasn't failed me... 9600 baud if you must know.

that's possibly the problem today, everything under one ownership, competition is a fierce driving force, if 1 person owned everything they could move along at a snails pace and not really care one way or another, however if we had multiple people pumping out add ons, then they would do like they did years ago and compete with each other hence alot of products would become available.

personally i make money and a pretty good amount of it but not marketing addons and selling them, i do custom work for sysops and right now i am sitting on over 20 projects completed and 6 more being worked on with another 4-5 emails with another sysop wanting something to work this way or that way.

the sysops are still here, problem is we get caught up in arguments over ownership rather than what we can do to make it better.

remember when i updated the SMTP Stuff to work with base64 credential authentication? something sysops raved for years they wanted in GALSMTP, well i spent 3 days defending my position in an email war with someone who wanted to remind me that is "galacticomm" property and i cannot sell it.

since all i did was modify the old system in place it is still the GALSMTP addon which i do not own, like seriously?? i add something to wg emailing that has been requested for years and i gotta argue about who owns it?
who gives a flying %$%^ who owns it, now sysops can send email and relay it right through their isp's smtp server and support authentication and alternate ports, and the newest addition is ssl connections.

we need to stop worrying about hwo owns something and just make it a habit to get this stuff available, you wont profit too much off selling the addons as much as you will using the wg credit system.

my majormud credit shop and tele-arena credit shop are gonna be pretty nifty additions to the large bbs's that have these games, especially since tele-arena REBORN is being written with this in mind and there is alot of stuff players can do like purchase Guilds, etc...

anyhow thats my piece, less arguing about ownership, and more actually servicing the needs of the community

[Boogooyagga]

Rant and Arrogance?
I teach Sociology and Behavioral Psychology with a dual Masters in the area and am in the Doctorate Program. I am not a programmer or editor. This has been my hobby for well over 15 years now.

Well I am sorry,but you came across to me like a witless 14 year old kid who believes he/she has a right to crack software illegally. Based on how you describe yourself and your motives, I will withdraw that view, but I believe that you should be careful to temper the way you express your views on subjects like abandonware so that people don't get the wrong impression.

You are the one being Arrogant Boogoo, trust me. I simply asked what support are you willing to offer and how to help the community and you replied nothing. How is that me being arrogant?

Its the way you asked, not what you asked.

I also do a heavy amount of work with PHP, Pervaise, C, C++, C#, Delphi, and Pascal. I am self taught in all of those as a result of the enjoyment of this hobby and having to provide my own support, because of lack of it from anywhere else.

Well this is a good thing if you run a BBS. I am also originally self taught because I was fascinated by computer languages. By the time I decided to get a degree in Comp. Sci. I had already single-handedly produced several major commercial accounting software products. My step into the WG arena was quite by accident. I wanted a system for my partners and employees to be able to access files long distance and someone told me about the Major BBS system. By that time it was actually WG2.

I do not care about any copyrights and freely share anything and everything I do. As a person who does this as a hobby, the greatest reward is watching people enjoy your work. There is no money left in this hobby as more and more people begin to leave it.

Yes but you have to be fair and respect the fact that many will do it for business reasons and they deserve the protection of copyright and other forms of legal protection for their investment and hard work. Because it is a hobby to you does not justify demanding that everyone else treat it as such.

I simply asked you logical question, what do you support, are you willing to sell any of it or offer support for it? Can you list the software you own so we can see it? Your response was no, I will not; than you call me arrogant?

What bothered me about your post is that you got egotistical when a simple thread was started about keygen legality.

If I appear egotistical, then I apologise. I was simply trying to firstly alert everyone to a couple of legal facts. Believe it or not, many people do not actually know that cracking is illegal or that there is no such thing legally as abandonware. Secondly, I wanted to get your focus back on the fact that decisions to market software are ultimately and most often business decisions which are not driven by hobbyist type concerns. To re-enter the WG arena for instance, I would have to undertake pretty much everything myself. Not saying I wouldn't enjoy it, but the reality is that I could not rationally move resources from a high revenue environment to sell WG modules for a return which could not justify that move. So I would become a "hobbyist"once again. At my age, well, put it this way-I don't have all that much time left.

At the end of the day, you and everyone else must be willing to simply respect the ISV's decision if so made, not to continue the marketing of their modules, and also if they choose, not to give away the source code. In an earlier post, I explained one of the reasons why giving away source code for modules may present a problem. You simply cannot rationally lambast people for making sound business decisions.

Given that a large part of WG's irrelevance today is the user count limit, a matter which I see discussed quite heavily on this system, part of the irony of your attack on me is that just before WG died, I tried to interest Tessier et al in a module which would have at that time revolutionized WG and if I had been allowed access to the breakout source code, would have completely removed the user count limit. Surprise, they weren't interested.

[SouthernCross]

I never made any money from this but spend a lot, I enjoy the hobby side of it all, as far as money; i enjoy and love that people enjoy what I have done.

[Toyduck]

My single dialup modem left still works perfect though! good ole USRobotics courier external box of love! 20 years its the only thing that hasn't failed me... 9600 baud if you must know.

I love it! I still have 3 external USRobitcs 2400 baud modems that work great...

[Iceman]

that's possibly the problem today, everything under one ownership, competition is a fierce driving force, if 1 person owned everything they could move along at a snails pace and not really care one way or another, however if we had multiple people pumping out add ons, then they would do like they did years ago and compete with each other hence alot of products would become available.

personally i make money and a pretty good amount of it but not marketing addons and selling them, i do custom work for sysops and right now i am sitting on over 20 projects completed and 6 more being worked on with another 4-5 emails with another sysop wanting something to work this way or that way.

the sysops are still here, problem is we get caught up in arguments over ownership rather than what we can do to make it better.

remember when i updated the SMTP Stuff to work with base64 credential authentication? something sysops raved for years they wanted in GALSMTP, well i spent 3 days defending my position in an email war with someone who wanted to remind me that is "galacticomm" property and i cannot sell it.

since all i did was modify the old system in place it is still the GALSMTP addon which i do not own, like seriously?? i add something to wg emailing that has been requested for years and i gotta argue about who owns it?
who gives a flying %$%^ who owns it, now sysops can send email and relay it right through their isp's smtp server and support authentication and alternate ports, and the newest addition is ssl connections.

we need to stop worrying about hwo owns something and just make it a habit to get this stuff available, you wont profit too much off selling the addons as much as you will using the wg credit system.

my majormud credit shop and tele-arena credit shop are gonna be pretty nifty additions to the large bbs's that have these games, especially since tele-arena REBORN is being written with this in mind and there is alot of stuff players can do like purchase Guilds, etc...

anyhow thats my piece, less arguing about ownership, and more actually servicing the needs of the community

This is all true... even now I have to logon to yahoo instead of send email directly from my BBS... heh I forgot about that annoyance... I also have to use "spamfilter isp" a 3rd party front-end just to screen emails coming in, otherwise I'd end up with thousands of junk daily... even with the antispam module I bought, its outdated and doesn't do what needs to be done today like SURBL lists and such... basically like spamassasin.

I really think the item credit shop will be a way to put some cash flow in the games for people... they can create one-off items, limited time items, or just put the best the game has to offer for immediate purchase without all the death! Cater to the instant-gratification is big business these days... the kids have grown up and are now adults with money to make things easier. (potions for +20 STR for 24 hours etc etc, all sorts of options)

[Iceman]

Given that a large part of WG's irrelevance today is the user count limit, a matter which I see discussed quite heavily on this system, part of the irony of your attack on me is that just before WG died, I tried to interest Tessier et al in a module which would have at that time revolutionized WG and if I had been allowed access to the breakout source code, would have completely removed the user count limit. Surprise, they weren't interested.

Don't tease me with the hint that at one point the user-limit problem could have been solved lol... I find it amazing on the bbs tonight I saw a parent explaining how they got their kid to try majormud... "it's like texting, except a lot more of it, cool hey" and sure enough he's playing now by hand!

The user limit is what stopped us from expanding back in 1997'ish because all the dialup users wouldn't fit in PPP channels on worldgroup, and the only choice was RADIUS accounting so all we needed was 1 open channel to authenticate... couldn't host 512 modems on the bbs... eventually moving away all together from the bbs and it turned into a telnet only side business that faded away... now I've got the same user limit problem with the revival of majormud... irony.

[Boogooyagga]

Don't tease me with the hint that at one point the user-limit problem could have been solved lol... I find it amazing on the bbs tonight I saw a parent explaining how they got their kid to try majormud... "it's like texting, except a lot more of it, cool hey" and sure enough he's playing now by hand!

The user limit is what stopped us from expanding back in 1997'ish because all the dialup users wouldn't fit in PPP channels on worldgroup, and the only choice was RADIUS accounting so all we needed was 1 open channel to authenticate... couldn't host 512 modems on the bbs... eventually moving away all together from the bbs and it turned into a telnet only side business that faded away... now I've got the same user limit problem with the revival of majormud... irony.

Yep. It could have been broken. But hooks into the breakthrough library code would have been needed since that was what essentially limited the user count. If you think about it you'll realize that the GSBL was always the limiting factor. In fact the GSBL started life with a limit of 32 users or more accurately 32 serial connections. There were actually several ways to surmount the 256 user limit. One was to run multiple copies of GSBL in a mullti-tasking environment like NT. This would have required that the server mainline be able to distinguish all the running copies separately. The hooks to do that would have needed to have been placed in the GSBL itself. Another method would be to simply expand the GSBL itself. This would have been the better solution but harder to code. In both cases, the mainline server software would have had to be made aware of the changes. very importantly, the changes would have had to be invisible to existing modules so as not to break anything.

There was a point at which it became clear that the major (pun ?) problem was that Galacticomm was trying to crowd out the ISVs in favour of modules produced either internally, or by Tessier's company. Memory kinda fails me now but I remember that after continuing complaints Galacticomm eventually held an ISV conference at Sheraton Plantation in Ft. Lauderdale to try and convince ISVs to stay on board. Galcticomm reps could not explain why ISVs except for Tessier (now the part owner) were not allowed an opportunity to place their modules on the WG 3.0 release CD. By the time the conference was over, several more ISVs had decided to call it quits because of what they saw as discriminatory tactics.

[dspain]

Don't tease me with the hint that at one point the user-limit problem could have been solved lol... I find it amazing on the bbs tonight I saw a parent explaining how they got their kid to try majormud... "it's like texting, except a lot more of it, cool hey" and sure enough he's playing now by hand!

The user limit is what stopped us from expanding back in 1997'ish because all the dialup users wouldn't fit in PPP channels on worldgroup, and the only choice was RADIUS accounting so all we needed was 1 open channel to authenticate... couldn't host 512 modems on the bbs... eventually moving away all together from the bbs and it turned into a telnet only side business that faded away... now I've got the same user limit problem with the revival of majormud... irony.

Yep. It could have been broken. But hooks into the breakthrough library code would have been needed since that was what essentially limited the user count. If you think about it you'll realize that the GSBL was always the limiting factor. In fact the GSBL started life with a limit of 32 users or more accurately 32 serial connections. There were actually several ways to surmount the 256 user limit. One was to run multiple copies of GSBL in a mullti-tasking environment like NT. This would have required that the server mainline be able to distinguish all the running copies separately. The hooks to do that would have needed to have been placed in the GSBL itself. Another method would be to simply expand the GSBL itself. This would have been the better solution but harder to code. In both cases, the mainline server software would have had to be made aware of the changes. very importantly, the changes would have had to be invisible to existing modules so as not to break anything.

There was a point at which it became clear that the major (pun ?) problem was that Galacticomm was trying to crowd out the ISVs in favour of modules produced either internally, or by Tessier's company. Memory kinda fails me now but I remember that after continuing complaints Galacticomm eventually held an ISV conference at Sheraton Plantation in Ft. Lauderdale to try and convince ISVs to stay on board. Galcticomm reps could not explain why ISVs except for Tessier (now the part owner) were not allowed an opportunity to place their modules on the WG 3.0 release CD. By the time the conference was over, several more ISVs had decided to call it quits because of what they saw as discriminatory tactics.

interesting, i may have to look at the GSBL.C and tinker with my own development box and try to add some more, although with windows programming you could pretty much rewrite the server portion completely and bypass alot of the ancient stuff in there.
this has been due an overhaul for years, i been slowly doing it one module at a time mainly in the GALICO stuff, but taking a crack at removing 256 user limitations would be huge especially in the 5.2 core where it has taken a more direct approach to web based community software, terminal mode is only good for one thing, and thats games that dont support web modes, although i am working on a new tele-arena engine that can be played via the browser, telnet in and play, or go to web site and play each emulating each other like GALTELE does.

[Boogooyagga]

interesting, i may have to look at the GSBL.C and tinker with my own development box and try to add some more, although with windows programming you could pretty much rewrite the server portion completely and bypass alot of the ancient stuff in there.
this has been due an overhaul for years, i been slowly doing it one module at a time mainly in the GALICO stuff, but taking a crack at removing 256 user limitations would be huge especially in the 5.2 core where it has taken a more direct approach to web based community software, terminal mode is only good for one thing, and thats games that dont support web modes, although i am working on a new tele-arena engine that can be played via the browser, telnet in and play, or go to web site and play each emulating each other like GALTELE does.

Remember that the first version of the GSBl was written in assembler, not C. That's where it got its speed from. A modern version of that code would probably function like a scheduler and simply fork each connection to a new thread for servicing. I can't imagine iterating over 1000 plus connections!

[dspain]

interesting, i may have to look at the GSBL.C and tinker with my own development box and try to add some more, although with windows programming you could pretty much rewrite the server portion completely and bypass alot of the ancient stuff in there.
this has been due an overhaul for years, i been slowly doing it one module at a time mainly in the GALICO stuff, but taking a crack at removing 256 user limitations would be huge especially in the 5.2 core where it has taken a more direct approach to web based community software, terminal mode is only good for one thing, and thats games that dont support web modes, although i am working on a new tele-arena engine that can be played via the browser, telnet in and play, or go to web site and play each emulating each other like GALTELE does.

Remember that the first version of the GSBl was written in assembler, not C. That's where it got its speed from. A modern version of that code would probably function like a scheduler and simply fork each connection to a new thread for servicing. I can't imagine iterating over 1000 plus connections!

correct, the modern version is a port of the unix flavor of the breakthrough, what i am proposing is actually eliminating it entirely, i mean how hard is it to write a single threaded windows socket server nowadays? i can do it in around 34 lines of code, rewriting the core in itself is what needs to happen all this porting this to work with that, forcing you to port this cause now that dont work is a huge headache.

no reason to stay behind in the times.

[Iceman]

correct, the modern version is a port of the unix flavor of the breakthrough, what i am proposing is actually eliminating it entirely, i mean how hard is it to write a single threaded windows socket server nowadays? i can do it in around 34 lines of code, rewriting the core in itself is what needs to happen all this porting this to work with that, forcing you to port this cause now that dont work is a huge headache.

no reason to stay behind in the times.

Don't forget the increased buffers so things like user listings display entirely lol... with 177 players you can list them using the games internal "who" command... but after we go beyond that, the bottom dozen or two drop off as if the listing just stops... I wonder if they ever tested with this many people. the global power module will list everyone, but my guess was a full buffer with way more data in the "who" listing than "#".

[Boogooyagga]

Don't forget the increased buffers so things like user listings display entirely lol... with 177 players you can list them using the games internal "who" command... but after we go beyond that, the bottom dozen or two drop off as if the listing just stops... I wonder if they ever tested with this many people. the global power module will list everyone, but my guess was a full buffer with way more data in the "who" listing than "#".

Buffer size is not really a problem. At the cost of a little speed, you can simply use the disk as a paging buffer when the memory buffers fills up. You can write it to use either the server's disk or the client's disk or even a combination of both. The other thing is although I cannot be sure now because its so long ago and I would need to see the code, I don't think you actually have to get the entire user listing at once. I believe you could actually just iterate over WG's internal list which means you could just throw away a screen full and start over (assuming you didn't need to page backwards). Even with a thousand connections, the principle would be the same.

However that is not the case for servicing the connections. Unless they were serviced by separate threads, that many connections would be awfully slow. WG's mainline serviced the connections by a simple iteration from 0 to 255 or the max server license count, then testing if each connection was currently live and then proceeding to service the connection. If the connection required special or lengthy processing, no other connection would be serviced until that connection's service routine returned. Because I knew this, I was able to "cheat" when I played Trade Wars on other systems. What I would do is log on and run a little script which would continually list the users logged on and read the connection number and the module they were in. When a free slot arrived below the lowest Trade Wars player, I would relog . In a TW shoot out, n the unlikely event that both players actually shot at the same instant, the lower connection would be processed first unless it took place at a time when the service routines were between the players connection numbers which was unlikely on a busy server. This trick probably never won me any TW games, but I sure felt good knowing about it, laff.

[Iceman]

Don't forget the increased buffers so things like user listings display entirely lol... with 177 players you can list them using the games internal "who" command... but after we go beyond that, the bottom dozen or two drop off as if the listing just stops... I wonder if they ever tested with this many people. the global power module will list everyone, but my guess was a full buffer with way more data in the "who" listing than "#".

Buffer size is not really a problem. At the cost of a little speed, you can simply use the disk as a paging buffer when the memory buffers fills up. You can write it to use either the server's disk or the client's disk or even a combination of both. The other thing is although I cannot be sure now because its so long ago and I would need to see the code, I don't think you actually have to get the entire user listing at once. I believe you could actually just iterate over WG's internal list which means you could just throw away a screen full and start over (assuming you didn't need to page backwards). Even with a thousand connections, the principle would be the same.

However that is not the case for servicing the connections. Unless they were serviced by separate threads, that many connections would be awfully slow. WG's mainline serviced the connections by a simple iteration from 0 to 255 or the max server license count, then testing if each connection was currently live and then proceeding to service the connection. If the connection required special or lengthy processing, no other connection would be serviced until that connection's service routine returned. Because I knew this, I was able to "cheat" when I played Trade Wars on other systems. What I would do is log on and run a little script which would continually list the users logged on and read the connection number and the module they were in. When a free slot arrived below the lowest Trade Wars player, I would relog . In a TW shoot out, n the unlikely event that both players actually shot at the same instant, the lower connection would be processed first unless it took place at a time when the service routines were between the players connection numbers which was unlikely on a busy server. This trick probably never won me any TW games,but I sure felt good knowing about it, laff.

LOLLL sneaky sneaky... well you gotta get any edge you can sometimes heh... I don't know much about the behind the scenes workings of the code, just my "who" listing in the game stops once we reach so many users, so its something in there... the only setting I can find that made it worse was going from the 16kb buffers down to 8kb sure made it show up even worse so just assuming its tied to that 16k limit in worldgroup.

ever since I stopped using hard drives a couple years ago, many problems have gone away... although maybe its the fully buffered ECC doing some magic who knows... used to have the occasional crash every few months from majormud activity but (knocks on wood) its been 2 years since the switch.

[mmurdock]

By the way... put me on the list of ISVs who havn't completely dropped of the face of the earth. I poke my head in here every so often but usually lurk.

email me at mike *** at*** mmurdock *** dot *** org if I can help with anything.

[rmaniac]

Warnings:
1. For most of this comment, I will pretend we are all based in the US and those are the only laws that matter.
2. I am quoting people and then responding, please understand that I am not responding to you, but to the comment in general. To put it another way, I may over explain something, or mention something you already know, when I do that, the information should be considered for anyone who did know know this and not as a slight against your knowledge.
3. Please don't insert words like always, I have tried to avoid them. There are always exceptions.



First, I will address some comments from Boogooyagga, who covers most of the issues surrounding this hobby and it's software. I would like to also thank you for posting and I am glad that things got less tense as the thread progressed. I hope you will stay around.


1. There is no legal term known as "abandonware"


Correct. I also doubt there is a legal term known as breathing or "googling", but legality does give or take away somethings existence or meaning. Additionally, there is a term called "Public Domain". Everything under copyright eventually goes there. Copyright is considered legal based on Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the Constitution which says: "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries".
What is my point? Copyright is a temporary monopoly granted and supported by the government. it limits the freedom of everyone else in order to promote creation. The owner is given a finite time to control his creation and everyone else is restricted in their right to make a copy. To put it another way, if I wanted to copy a book or painting (by hand or scan), I have this ability, copyright actually removes my freedom to do so, assuming I am not the original creator. This limitation of freedom is generally considered a net positive, since it should encourage people to create.
So, here are some (somewhat rhetorical) thoughts/questions. Are the 95 years currently allowed by copyright outside of the "limited term" purposed by the founding fathers? I would say so. Would most people creating software be deterred if they knew their copyright would expire in say 10 or 15 years? I seriously doubt it, most software does not make profits that long anyway. Everything goes into the Public Domain eventually, but, as we have seen, authors are not always the best stewards of their own software, nor should they have to be. Imagine forcing software authors to either give their software to public domain (upon cession of support) or making sure they can produce said software when the copyright is up. One says you must give it over "early" and the other, well, most companies don't last 95 years and their authors sure as hell won't last to see their work automatically go public.
Where does that leave us? Well, as I have said, copyright restricts freedom of the many for the few, and this is not always a bad thing. Its length means that by the time a more obscure work goes public, it will be long forgotten. The owners of a copyright may either not care, not even know if they own something (banks, etc), or have lost the binary, source or keygen. How can we save these bits of history then? By copying, cracking, keygening, etc. If the users don't, it may well be lost, sadly it often is anyway, especially the source.
So while there my not be a legal term, for the sake of history, freedom and the public domain, it may in some cases, be morally right.

2. The other term used for cracking software is "stealing".


Incorrect. A better term might be circumvention, if you like. Also, sending a copy (cracked or otherwise), is not stealing. The there is a legal term for unauthorized copying, it is called "infringement" and it is most certainly separate from stealing. Sadly, though it is, in my opinion, often a lesser crime, it has a much stronger lobby. So, people will get much larger fines (mostly) or sentences (sometimes) for infringing a song than breaking into my home and physically stealing a CD. That anyone should be put away longer for a copying over a mugging is mind boggling, but it happens. Point here is, cracking != stealing != infringement and mixing these terms is more shock and awe by large copyright holders than legal reality, but I am sure they are working to "fix" it. It is really just a way to make people think something that is morally grey (limiting one person's freedoms for another for the common good) vs one that is morally black (thievery, which has legal and religious ramifications, ie it does not say "you shall not infringe, share, copy, etc", in the 10 commandments ).

3. If the owner of software decides to stop marketing, selling, developing, supporting software which has been produced by them, no one will ever acquire the right to crack that software. It is simply illegal, a federal offence in the USA, and a criminal offence in most states and other countries including the one I live in.


Incorrect. As I mentioned above, everything ends up in the public domain. The only thing that makes "cracking" illegal is the DMCA, and honestly I find that law to be morally questionable ( motivations, effects on freedom/competition), but legally it seems to do everything and more (censorship, incompatibility, vendor lock, etc) than it was intended to do. You might say the the DMCA will make it illegal to ever crack anything, but there exceptions when it comes to libraries, archives, etc and when something is in the public domain, it belongs to everyone so you would only have to give yourself permission to circumvent the protection and all is well.

4. Software sales and support decisions are business decisions. Have a look at how Microsoft and others handle the issue. When software no longer has a market, it is unlikely that a vendor will continue marketing that software. After all, we are in business to make a profit.


Agreed, but some basic level of support would be implied in almost any sale. Sure, Microsoft stops supporting things, but they support things for a very long time, give good warning and generally have an alternative that is still for sale. I would not expect anyone to market something beyond their desire to sell it, but if something is broke and there is no replacement, it would be at the very least polite to fix it. Car makers often have to do recalls or fix things that are not in warranty for safety reasons, yet insecure software has no such requirement. This seems rather broken to me since you can easily replace car parts, but without the source code, fixing software issues can be tedious, at best. Also, software companies seem content to sell things with no intention of support (especially in this hobby), while it's nice to be able to get a copy, paying hundreds for zero support is rough.

5. The source code for software usually consists of several "engines" which are proprietary and used throughout the vendor's entire range of products. In Soft Arts' case for instance, the most valuable asset in the WG portfolio was/stil is a library of C routines which was purchased at the time several modules were acquired. Providing the source code for any module will often require providing at least a part of the source code for the libraries. Not everything of course because of DLLs and the like, but even the provision of compiled binaries requires the disclosure of an API which is valuable to the vendor. In our case, that library became the foundation for other products which are still being sold and supported. It should not be too difficult to understand then why vendors may not wish to provide the source code for programs/modules which are no longer sold.


Agreed, there are many reasons to not open source. The API disclosure comment is weird, I think all APIs need to be pretty open for competition / compatibility reasons and a judge recently ruled (in Oracle vs Google) that an API was not copyrightable. Of course, even releasing part of the source for people to do their own fixes is good, that's even what Galacticomm did with MBBS/Worldgroup and it allowed them to hang onto things they found to be "important" or "core" like the GSBL.

6. The simple fact is also that a vendor who stops selling software is under no obligation to provide the software to the world at large as a sort of consolation. The production or acquisition of software rights is an expensive proposition. Even where a loss is made on a product, companies and businesses may wish to retain the rights to the product because it can be of value as a notional asset in the compilation of a balance sheet, which may have implications for the business' ability to source financing, etc.


Nope, they are not under any obligation, but like I said everything goes into the public domain sometime, it's sometimes just a question of if someone will care enough to preserve it until it does. Of course, releasing source or giving out software does not mean a loss of rights, or even commercial viability. Look at ID Software or the countless companies that dual license their software for free/open and commercial use.
I would argue this is a problem with current copyright not a benefit.



Sorry, this has gone way to long. As for the non-numbered "pro-copy" comments:

People like Rick have put a lot of time/money into preserving this software. The fact that they are still here trying to get this stuff out to the community should be enough to want to support them. I understand that tossing money to someone like Metropolis that seems to have zero intention to support / update you would be lame, but the law is in their favor and it could cause one some trouble. It's probably better to rewrite than toss money at them or try to pry it from their death grip (Gameport types, not Rick types).




Overall:


If something is totally useless (or lost) by the time it hits copyright limits, then the length is too long. If people can't even support each other (patches, even "cracks", etc) when the software company has ceased to support them, we have an issue. The way I see it, companies either need to be compelled, as a requirement of getting a copyright, to support their users or copyright / DMCA needs to be updated to make sure users can support themselves and preserve things for historical purposes. If everyone obeyed these insane laws to the T, not only we would have to keep re-buying the same products over and over at the copyright holder's whim (format changes, auth server removal, etc), but we could look back and find a gap in our media history (music, video games, etc would not be playable anymore if they did not have an "offline mode"). I am grateful for developers that open source their software (mmurdock), people who dig up the rights/source out of passion (rhadsall) and the people who preserve our history in spite of legal complications (MBBS4EVER). All of these things are required to keep these bits of alive. Not everyone can handle unlocking software and if we wait too long, it may be difficult to find someone with the talent or interest.


The laws in their current state encourage hoarding, as was said, for things like "notional asset in the compilation of a balance sheet", patent/copyright trolling or just trying to maintain the status quo. They should encourage innovation, but that is not done by scaring (blackmailing) people with lawsuits, or keeping something proprietary so long that is is obsolete by the time someone else can duplicate it. Closed APIs (possibly patentable), codecs, so forth that stop interoperability don't help and to say we just would not have things like compression, the web, guis, movies, music, book, etc without patents or 95 year copyright is absurd. This should be fixed, until then, creators should treat their customers with respect, and customers should give their hard earned dollars to the respectful companies. If you want something and the creator is not living up to your standard, then find and buy an alternative, if that is impossible, go without or copy. In my opinion, supporting those who support you should be first and foremost, followed by not supporting bad people, and finally at least preserving what has been made.


I'm not recommending what anyone should or shouldn't do, but this is a hobby and people just can't pay the old prices anymore (looking at the Gameports here). Even the companies/people that are left are inconsistent in their support at best (note this website's wiki/mainpage is quite dead atm, only thing slower than Gameport's webpage is their email response, etc). Sure, it can be argued that some of this has to do with the lack of willingness to pay these people, but that is exacerbated by the lack of support, updates, response, solid legal standing, access to code, etc. If someone purchased something today, they could not even be reasonably sure of an email response the next day. Even Rick has sent checks to people to complete a contract / acquisition only to have them drop off the map in that final stage of negotiation.


Some software makers will even be glad to be remembered and others will be glad to find a copy of their software since they lost it in a move, merge, crash, etc.


Thank you to everyone who creates good software.
Thank you to everyone who works to keep the software alive
Thank you to the pirates who will preserve their heritage even if no one else will.


Thank you for all that stuck with me through this post.

[Toyduck]

Thank you for all that stuck with me through this post.

Thanks for the post. Although it is a might long to quote

You bring up a lot of good points. I just hope some of this 'old school' software lasts long enough for the new generation to finally discover it.

[dspain]

- Metro (crosswordz@239$ says it all)

Don't install crosswordz on a windows version of worldgroup... any user can crash the system using in game commands... it used to be a pretty popular module of mine till I had to pull the plug.

as far as I know the dos version was not victim to this issue though.

Oh the "2012 copyright" on metros pages is just something that appears on lots of their websites automatically... mod9 is so old it went off to college and called saying it can't find a job and is moving back home now to live in the basement.

did anyone ever manage to get into the mod10 areas? a guy contacted me 2 years ago where he could go to the mod 10 area but couldnt move and wanted me to look at the database and structure blocks and try to bypass it.
he offered me a king's ransom b/c it would "require so much time" and even paid 50% iup front then came back to me like 3 months later saying he was done with wg and majormud and if i wanted i could post any of my findings on forumshq and never heard from him again.

[frcorey]

- Metro (crosswordz@239$ says it all)

Don't install crosswordz on a windows version of worldgroup... any user can crash the system using in game commands... it used to be a pretty popular module of mine till I had to pull the plug.

as far as I know the dos version was not victim to this issue though.

Oh the "2012 copyright" on metros pages is just something that appears on lots of their websites automatically... mod9 is so old it went off to college and called saying it can't find a job and is moving back home now to live in the basement.

did anyone ever manage to get into the mod10 areas? a guy contacted me 2 years ago where he could go to the mod 10 area but couldnt move and wanted me to look at the database and structure blocks and try to bypass it.
he offered me a king's ransom b/c it would "require so much time" and even paid 50% iup front then came back to me like 3 months later saying he was done with wg and majormud and if i wanted i could post any of my findings on forumshq and never heard from him again.

you cant. it's hard coded for on;y developers.
and I dont know want varibles they used. you might be able to use a database viewer to see what it's looking for thou.

[Iceman]

did anyone ever manage to get into the mod10 areas? a guy contacted me 2 years ago where he could go to the mod 10 area but couldnt move and wanted me to look at the database and structure blocks and try to bypass it.
he offered me a king's ransom b/c it would "require so much time" and even paid 50% iup front then came back to me like 3 months later saying he was done with wg and majormud and if i wanted i could post any of my findings on forumshq and never heard from him again.

As far as I understand... a lot of content is in the 1.11p data files... all it takes is connecting the new maps to the main map so it is accessible... there is no current path in the game that will connect to it... pretty sure there was a posting I read at one time telling you exactly what rooms to connect and you'd have access... (maybe that was on forumshq)

not sure about monstes if they are ready to generate on the map once its connected... I know there are many rooms/items/monsters in the database that are not in the rest of the realm so...

[frcorey]

did anyone ever manage to get into the mod10 areas? a guy contacted me 2 years ago where he could go to the mod 10 area but couldnt move and wanted me to look at the database and structure blocks and try to bypass it.
he offered me a king's ransom b/c it would "require so much time" and even paid 50% iup front then came back to me like 3 months later saying he was done with wg and majormud and if i wanted i could post any of my findings on forumshq and never heard from him again.

As far as I understand... a lot of content is in the 1.11p data files... all it takes is connecting the new maps to the main map so it is accessible... there is no current path in the game that will connect to it... pretty sure there was a posting I read at one time telling you exactly what rooms to connect and you'd have access... (maybe that was on forumshq)

not sure about monstes if they are ready to generate on the map once its connected... I know there are many rooms/items/monsters in the database that are not in the rest of the realm so...

hope thier tamper code is not activated.
one false move and everyone is turned into pig farmers with sharp sticks. I always thought that was funny.