The Major BBS Forums (Archive)

VeNoM wrote:

Franchise_24 wrote:Rick, my main question is how do you copyright monster names and room descriptions? Like a warlock or a ogre or a minotaur, or The Cave is dimly lit. How does all that go down?

I think there's wiggle room in copyright law for things like that.


If i made a game completely un-similar to TA, and had a mob in it called a Warlock, or an area called "The Dungeon", its not similar enough that anyone would have a case against me for copyright infringement.

But if i made a game, called it Tele-Arena, and did my damndest to immitate Tele-Arena in every aspect, then there's a pretty strong case against me.

Otherwise, every mud in existence would have grounds to sue all of the rest. Because when it gets down to it, every mud has similarities to others.

Very true. It's funny I remember a Door Game back in the day that ran on a Wildcat system I used to call. It was called Lost Temple and it was basically a TA CLONE. First down was identical and everything. Game had issues and didn't last long though, they may have been sued for all I know. Anyone ever heard of or remember that game?

Franchise_24 wrote:I understand that maps are unique, I was more wondering about names and such. So basically you can use names and types of room descriptions, but when it gets to layout that's when things can get hairy.

Exactly. Layout. Gameplay - exact descriptions used at exact places/times. That sort of thing.

You certainly could make a very similar style game to Tele-Arena using similar monster classes and weapons -- TA isn't actually a very richly developed "world" compared to some other MUD type RPG games -- but copying it directly or even too closely would absolutely constitute infringement.

Think of it this way - we all use the same language and share a big list of words. But when you put them together in certain ways -- a book, for example -- that's copyrightable. You were asking about single words which is in the realm of trademarks. There's little trademarkable here.

VeNoM wrote:

dspain wrote: not bad, hoping to have my tele-arena win32 server finished by this week so i can finish up my tele-arena platinum module and ill connect to it
i got a ton of new addons but community has been so dead no real need to plug my products, ill throw a lil bait see what bites.

tele-arena is the only wg module i intend on porting to standalones although i have been asked to do galactic empire and mutants i see no need to port those just make my own working wg3 modules of them.

so when i have the new ta, and tw out i guess ill advertise see what i get.

So, you're building a stand-alone ta server? And tw server?

Dont you think that's treading on thin ice?

Rick owns the rights to TA, is he in on this?

And tw, well, as far as I know EIS is still actively selling tw2002, a stand alone tw2002 would compete directly with TWGS.

i did not recreate tradewars 2002 i ported the old tradewars II to a worldgroup module and then a standalone with John Pritchard's consent and complied with his licensing guidelines.

tele-arena was redone as a standalone win32 server no different than what the Ether project did in java i just stuck with borland c++ 5.5.1 and have complied with Rick's licensing hence it is not for sale you may connect to me only to play it.

Tradewars II is not Tradewars 2002 they are completely different monsters, my entire game is based off of the tw2 basic source code released by Chris Sherrick not the john morris fork but the original and twgs and tw2 can equally co-exist, as a matter of fact JP is working me up a skeleton module which would allow the twgs server to load as a module as it does the current tw2002 game and i have full intentions of sending him a reworked copy to function within the twgs api.

nope no thin ice here, just a developer writing entertainment products and adhering to licensing guidelines.

Questman wrote:I still am not in support of anything branded Tele-Arena that is not authorized by me and that includes a standalone server. Sean Ferrell can tell Dan what he wants, but I have a contract with his signature on it and it clearly gives rights to the game and its descriptions, etc (IP) to me. Sean DOES receive a royalty for a simple port, but that doesn't mean he has any rights to the game any longer.

TradeWars is owned and marketed by EIS and they are very protective of their intellectual property as well. While there's lots of old source code on the Internet (TW 2, TW 2001, etc), the use of the TradeWars name directly or in reference for marketing purposes will not be tolerated by EIS. Further, descriptions within the TW universe and canon will not be tolerated.

The argument that the engine for TA or even TW are "separately written" does not hold copyright water. If you use the game's map/world/descriptions, it's still infringement. And Dan can never claim a clean room copy because we all know he's had access to the leaked 5.6c source code for TA and most likely the TW BASIC and/or Pascal code. That exposure removes the potential for the clean room "I wrote it myself" argument.

1) what part of the "leaked" (god i laugh at the term leaked as does Sean)
source code runs outside of the worldgroup api? oh wait none of it does,
the developer of SMAUG helped me work out a small lightweight telnet server which i added a user accounting system and then game commands to, sorry but none of the tele-arena 5.6 source will drop into my engine, the api is so far different it would not know what the hell it was trying to do, having access to the same source that gets you laughed off c++ forums sites wanna know what i used? i converted each of the DBF files from the editor package to XML files and imported those into sqlite tables then had to modify thousands and thousands of entries to make it do what i wanted it to so yes the data belongs to tele-arena but the server and each function inside of it is mine yes mine not a fork of ta 5.6 but something it has taken me over a year to design not because i wanan whine about it on some forum board but because just like GreaterMud
the game deserved to live and breathe not just die or watch these trolls that come on here with their illegal wg2 systems and downloaded ta 5.6 games whine about it, so yes the data is not mine but the server and 100% of the source is, the only part of the source that is not mine is sqlite3.c and sqlite3.h when have i ever withheld source regarding ta? never, so if you feel its your code suped up feel free to drop a pm and ask i will let you see it then you can actually realize there are people doing things legitimately not forking the old codebase.

2) EIS aka John Pritchard knows about my product and gave me a list of dos and donts and each one was adhered to according to his and his investors' wishes, so no violation here either. i nbever claimed clean nothing i have always called it a WG port, and as long as it does not incorporate any features outside of the TW II game as it shipped in 1986 they gave the green light.

OhASys wrote:Aside from copyright disputes.. Why make stand-alone versions of anything for MBBS/WG?

I mean, I thought the whole real point of this site, is reviving the system entirely? (hence the name The Major BBS Restoration Project)?

I think its great people have an interest, but, from what I see, it seems like everyone is kind of doing their own thing instead of focusing on what this site is about?

If you want to make stand alone things, I guess this is not really the place to discuss it?

OhASyS - pheedom.net

having a standalone tele-arena server allows wg systems to connect to it and allow their users to play the game, so it brings back the ability to play a game that was a big part of mbbs/wg during its reign.

by doing a standalone server that accepts connections, it frees up the ability of sysops needing dma/special rlogin connections anymore, i put the systems ip in accept.txt and the server allows the connection to go through and due to so many naming conflicts you choose a name Sysop, John23, AlexTheMan whatever select a password and play it.

one server, all housing characters from every system out there is pretty nice when it comes to access to play.

of course you got the sysops that want to edit it, edit their characters, etc.. well they are SOL.

oh and btw theres not alot of people out there that have done for wg what i have done, the contributions, the hours of modifying some baseline code for a specific sysops needs, trust me i do my part to revive the product, but the community itself is dying off slowly cause we waste too much time crying over ownership issues instead of focusing on making something available.

Franchise_24 wrote:Rick, my main question is how do you copyright monster names and room descriptions? Like a warlock or a ogre or a minotaur, or The Cave is dimly lit. How does all that go down?

that cannot be copyrighted supreme court rules many years ago that basic names could not be copyrighted, what can be is the actual database that you plug into, so his argument to a judge could be that i took his original database and pulled parts out, my argument could be no i used the original as a reference only, if an artist paints your portrait that artwork is his by all legal entities, but what rights do the person who had their picture taken have? thats where it would become a court battle i used the "picture" of tele-arena to make it in my own code, then i justy have to prove thats what i actually did.

if it comes to that point where i get attacked but the author of Ether dont nor does the guy that wrote the bbs documentary that allows MBBS4EVER to distro from his siter and whats in that distro? a copy of tele-arena.

then i will know its personal and just move on from wg, and ta altogether.

VeNoM wrote:

Franchise_24 wrote:Rick, my main question is how do you copyright monster names and room descriptions? Like a warlock or a ogre or a minotaur, or The Cave is dimly lit. How does all that go down?

I think there's wiggle room in copyright law for things like that.


If i made a game completely un-similar to TA, and had a mob in it called a Warlock, or an area called "The Dungeon", its not similar enough that anyone would have a case against me for copyright infringement.

But if i made a game, called it Tele-Arena, and did my damndest to immitate Tele-Arena in every aspect, then there's a pretty strong case against me.

Otherwise, every mud in existence would have grounds to sue all of the rest. Because when it gets down to it, every mud has similarities to others.

do me a favor, download this: http://ftp.wwiv.com/LOSTV10.HTM
run it locally, create your character, oh and goblin rogue there also is the only combo that can get 30 agility.

get the white rune then post back tele-arena and that game arent 100% similiar in all aspects.

Franchise_24 wrote:I understand that maps are unique, I was more wondering about names and such. So basically you can use names and types of room descriptions, but when it gets to layout that's when things can get hairy.

http://ftp.wwiv.com/LOSTV10.HTM

so who should get sued JT McGity or Sean Ferrell?

2 identical games each using the unique "Rune" system to gain access to higher areas in the game.

and notice both authors are from florida.

dspain wrote: 1) what part of the "leaked" (god i laugh at the term leaked as does Sean)
source code runs outside of the worldgroup api?

I'm glad you and Sean are buddy-buddy.

It's not relevant that the code doesn't run outside of Worldgroup; the essence of the game are the routines and the things they do.

to, sorry but none of the tele-arena 5.6 source will drop into my engine, the api is so far different it would not know what the hell it was trying to do, having access to the same source that gets you laughed off c++ forums sites wanna know what i used? i converted each of the DBF files from the editor package to XML files and imported those into sqlite tables then had to modify thousands and thousands of entries to make it do what i wanted it to so yes the data belongs to tele-arena but the server and each function inside of it is mine yes mine not a fork of ta 5.6 but something it has taken me over a year to design not because i wanan whine about it on some forum board but because just like GreaterMud
the game deserved to live and breathe not just die or watch these trolls that come on here with their illegal wg2 systems and downloaded ta 5.6 games whine about it, so yes the data is not mine but the server and 100% of the source is, the only part of the source that is not mine is sqlite3.c and sqlite3.h when have i ever withheld source regarding ta? never, so if you feel its your code suped up feel free to drop a pm and ask i will let you see it then you can actually realize there are people doing things legitimately not forking the old codebase.

Firstly, just because you aren't pasting the code in doesn't mean you aren't using it. I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation here; if a routine says:

decision = x/2 + sin(y) + random(c*((1/4)x) % 3;

then if you, knowing this, implement the exact same mechanics into your version, it's the same as if you copied it. I understand what you're saying but I don't think you're understanding what I am saying.

The data is Tele-Arena's, of course. Just changing the storage format doesn't change that. Similarly, just changing the code syntax or compiler adherence doesn't change the logic. The logic is what is the essence of a program, not the syntax. When people look at "infringement" they don't just do a code compare!

It's moot, because you've promised that you would not distribute/sell/etc this version and that's fine. If it was for personal development and use, there's no issue.

Franchise_24 wrote:I understand that maps are unique, I was more wondering about names and such. So basically you can use names and types of room descriptions, but when it gets to layout that's when things can get hairy.

World of Warcraft has a hearthstone that takes you to a bind point.
Tele-arena has a heartstone that takes you back to the temple.

World of Warcraft has a soulstone that brings you back to the battle.
Tele-arena's does too.

games always mimic each other, the copyright arguments are what helps IP holders sleep at night bottom line is you can cloen games all day but you have to do it with your own code/data

dspain wrote:oh and btw theres not alot of people out there that have done for wg what i have done, the contributions, the hours of modifying some baseline code for a specific sysops needs, trust me i do my part to revive the product, but the community itself is dying off slowly cause we waste too much time crying over ownership issues instead of focusing on making something available.

Look, I don't think that's necessarily a fair statement. I've got what, 50 modules in distribution and over a dozen more to come. I've personally up ported many more modules that I'm simply not allowed to distribute because I don't own them. It sucks, but it's the right way to do things. I could just slap my name on it and change the name of the game or something but how does that accomplish what I want?

What I mean is - I don't think we're crying over ownership issues. But I'm trying to do things the right way here. MBBS4EVER is a known pirate archive. People who use it know what they're doing. And there's probably a legitimate argument to the modules that are lost that they're "fair game". But most of those aren't. It is an entirely different thing if we here in the community lower ourselves to common pirates.

What frustrates me is that while you're equally as enthusiastic as I am, what you and many other people on this forum don't realize is the time and MONEY I've spent getting these modules acquired so I can then spend time to port them to make them available, often for nothing but other times I've had to ask a small fee to try to help offset it. Tele-Arena is an example. You want to have a go at it freely but you forget that I spent thousands to buy the rights from Sean, who has gone around pretending that didn't happen (but it has).

If we don't do things the right way what good are we? NetVillage itself is hawking stolen software. Galacticomm after Stryker died was always a mess - it was always a scene and platform where people were getting f***ed. Ask Datasafe. And many others. Let's end that part -- that's not the part I'm trying to restore.

Questman wrote:

dspain wrote:oh and btw theres not alot of people out there that have done for wg what i have done, the contributions, the hours of modifying some baseline code for a specific sysops needs, trust me i do my part to revive the product, but the community itself is dying off slowly cause we waste too much time crying over ownership issues instead of focusing on making something available.

Look, I don't think that's necessarily a fair statement. I've got what, 50 modules in distribution and over a dozen more to come. I've personally up ported many more modules that I'm simply not allowed to distribute because I don't own them. It sucks, but it's the right way to do things. I could just slap my name on it and change the name of the game or something but how does that accomplish what I want?

What I mean is - I don't think we're crying over ownership issues. But I'm trying to do things the right way here. MBBS4EVER is a known pirate archive. People who use it know what they're doing. And there's probably a legitimate argument to the modules that are lost that they're "fair game". But most of those aren't. It is an entirely different thing if we here in the community lower ourselves to common pirates.

What frustrates me is that while you're equally as enthusiastic as I am, what you and many other people on this forum don't realize is the time and MONEY I've spent getting these modules acquired so I can then spend time to port them to make them available, often for nothing but other times I've had to ask a small fee to try to help offset it. Tele-Arena is an example. You want to have a go at it freely but you forget that I spent thousands to buy the rights from Sean, who has gone around pretending that didn't happen (but it has).

If we don't do things the right way what good are we? NetVillage itself is hawking stolen software. Galacticomm after Stryker died was always a mess - it was always a scene and platform where people were getting f***ed. Ask Datasafe. And many others. Let's end that part -- that's not the part I'm trying to restore.

and ive said it hundreds of times as well i do not sell my standalone its a fun project i emphasize the word fun, its beginning to lose its edge on funness when every 3-4 days i gotta defend myself and my actions i mean hell when you met me i had a customized bbs with a custom tele-arena which i did not sell either i sold subscriptions and i had a 40-50 user activity base, i am not saying you do it we have discussed this its a consistent defense on what i did you know its funny when its done it will prolly be shelved anyway and i will move on to a browser based form its what i do for fun i dont do it for profit as for what Sean Ferrell is saying thats not my argument but after all he is Sean Ferrell i mean come on you know how many people out there wish they could just email "the man"
he never gave up any source material just stated his version of the story which does me absolutely no good in my quest.

the reason i chose tele-arena was because i was so familiar with the gameplay, i could focus on code writing and not game design aspects and when it is completed i have full intentions to release my own flagship product which right now is completely paper designed up to level 25 uses a wow like idea of 2 factions each with 7 races and 12 classes each resembling good vs evil that will be the end-result but until then i still have to complete my server which i will be releasing the full source code too on sourceforge for other entry-level developers wanting to create their own mud all ya do is take the server code and drop in your own game functions.

as for tele-arena the server doesn't even run publicly right now its just a project i dump code into every few days as for wg modules i gave up
the emails about what should or should not be free were headaches, my next module tradewars II is being released publicly under license, and the one after that was supposed to be mutants but i cant locate anyone for permission so im up in the air, tele-arena is just sitting here mainly as a personal project.

I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just making statements in general.

As for Mutants, they refuse to sell. I've tried, as I have it and have it working on NT.

Is this still up and running? I see in June that Venom posted that it was running. I wanted to know so I can try to link in again.

I am sorry, do not check these forums that much anymore. to much mucking around about copyright talk last time I looked.

Windows 8 will not run any of this software. I believe coming together as a community is better than having nails in the coffin of dispute drive the archaic software we enjoy so much into the ground.

The less time disputing what can and can not be done, the more time can be made to building a good board and help build the community back up.

Sometimes our own egos and recognition for ourselves in the things we done and some of the things we do gets so great, we isolate anyone that would show true recognition and play on our boards. A person does not have to say good job, "oh you created or host this?" to show that it is being enjoyed.

If copyright is so important of an issue rather than running something that everyone can enjoy is so important. Take everything you have done up to 20 years ago, put on your resume and explain to the hiring company how that can compete with today's games and work.

To be able to have people enjoy what you do and what you have done, you have to first swallow your pride about the past, and think about how you can greatly improve that for today and the future.

Part of the dying of the BBS community is the great divide, from those who believe it should all be for free, and those who want to squeeze blood from a rock in hopes to milk every last penny they hope they can get out of it.

I know some will disagree, hell I spent Tens of Thousands over the years, both to keep the board running as well as the hundreds of hours working on the maintenance, that will never be recovered, because it is all for free. The reason I still do it is because others enjoy it. Having a 50 to 70 user base 24/7 for all these years with almost 150 unique a day, has shown me that. I have wanted to throw in the towel so many times. As long as you show you care, they will come to your boards. Debating and talking copyrights is not a sign of showing an already upset and dying community you care. They want to be on boards to where people look toward the future.

That is my 2 cents on the topic of copyrights on almost 20 year old software.


I am heavily interested on getting on the Worldlink server, if it is still up and running.

Dave/Southerncross

WL is most definitely up and running, there's about 8 boards on it full time these days.

Assuming you're running 3.x NT the patched WL Teleconference module is available right from QMan's website, http://www.elwynor.com/elwynorwiki/disp ... roupServer , just follow the instructions there to get on-line and going.

The only common issue I've helped people with is setting of their HOSTNAM and DOMAIN settings in the CNF correctly so it properly shows your address on WL.

I'm happy to help if you need any.

hmm.. I'm using Netvillage's 5.20 version, (Was running 3.30 previously, actually paid for that a while back) -- and was certainly able to connect to Worldlink in the past; I just tried changing to worldlink.themajorbbs.com; just sits there with "U" in the status and "Transferring User Information", doesnts eem to want to connect...

Can I not use this module?

Nevermind. Working now, not sure why it wasn't before.

icedragon wrote:Nevermind. Working now, not sure why it wasn't before.

Sometimes I think it's the ISP, although I have no idea why. At one location (my server room) I can only connect using the original module for Worldlink, not Questman's new one.

Yet I took (with some effort) my WG machine to my office and a different ISP, and everything worked just fine. Back to my server room, nada.